Talk:Maximizing Your Muscle

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Shirts for the Snappy Ascender

I'm a little confused as to why the Ascender doesn't have the Knob Goblin Elite Shirt listed, the White Snakeskin Duster and other such items I can understand as they require the additional smithing skill, but if you have Torso Awareness you will nearly always get the KGE Shirt. Is Torso Awareness considered a Non-Buff skill? If so, I think perhaps it should be changed for a person who, "has ascended a number of times, including some hardcore runs". If an Ascender in the final measure shouldn't have TA, I think it would be proper to specifically mention Torso Awareness in the Non-Buff Skills section. ).--Dangerpin 17:34, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

Equipment/Buff Classification KOL Deity Villa Ascender Normal Apathetic Lizardman
Custom Equipment Yes No No No No
Ultra Rares Yes No No No No
Mafia Prizes Yes No No No No
Maximum Equipment Value n/a 10,000,000 1,000,000 100,000 10,000
Plexiglass Equipment Yes Yes No No No
Non Buff Skills Yes Yes No No No
Clan Buffs Yes Yes No No No
Class Equipment Yes Yes No No No
Zodiac Sign Bonus Yes Yes No No No
Moon Bonus Yes Yes No No No
Hopped Up on Goofballs Yes Yes No No No
Limit on Mind-Control Device Gear n/a n/a 1 0 0
Stainless Steel Equipment Yes Yes Yes No No
Maximum Item Buff Value n/a n/a n/a 10,000 1,000
Skill Buffs Yes Yes Yes Yes No
! Potions Yes Yes Yes Yes No

Torso Awaregness is a non-buff skill, therefore, an Ascender cannot use the KGE shirt. --CG1:t,c,e 21:53, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Yes, this is an ongoing issue. According to TPTB on this wiki site, Ascenders never have shirts, and if this guide is any indication, a "casual" or "normal" player will be rolling with the exact same accessories as a Villa player (Slow talkin elliot's dogtags are apparently the only thing anyone short of a Deity would use). Also, Even though they can't have shirts, Ascenders CAN have Brimstone items. And Casual players can have stainless steel items. Yeah. Riiiiight. I know plenty of casual players who roll in stainless steel and have DFSS, don't you? </sarcasm>

This table as I'm currently looking at it has shirts for Ascenders, but someone will come along soon and omit useful information in a well-intetioned but anti-helpful attempt at adhering to the standards.

This is yet another perfect example of how useless these tables are becoming... not only are they not consistent, they miss important distinctions. There's a wide range of ascenders below the Villa level, there could at least be a "high ascender" and "low ascender" distinction, to address the shirts issue and a host of other things that repeat ascenders could be assumed to have. PassionFever 17:29, 12 November 2007 (CST)

  • Before making comments like that look at the date of the previous post. Then look at when the method for these pages were changed. The new method has some major changes to the method and when it was done there was a week for people to chime in but since there were few people who did it was changed. --Chunky_boo 17:54, 12 November 2007 (CST)

Yet, according to this table, an Apathetic Lizardman would have three sets of Slow Talkin' Eliot's Dogtags (50Kish each at the mall), and a Casual player would have several stainless steel items, yet not be considered an Ascender.PassionFever 09:29, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Plexiglass Pike Pike

Maybe It's just me but I'd think on the higher levels, or highest, you would see 2x SS Shils instead of 1x Plexiglass PP.

Similarly shouldn't some of the lesser ranks that have a 1hded weapon like the ss Shil have an "offhand" row with a hippo skin buckler (thats the +5 muscle right?)?

Similarly again shouldn't the break-points for when +% items surpass +Muscle items be included for categories where both types of items exist, such as the Helmet slot where for example the Crown of the Goblin King beats the SS Skullcap till you have over 66 muscle.

Just a (few) thought(s).--Practitioner of Saucy Arts 10:04, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

Incorrect Moon Effects

I see at least Temporary Lycanthropy is wrong, moonlight should take it to 100% once every full (176 day) cycle, and 75% more frequently then that.--Harik 22:16, 30 August 2006 (CDT)


Yet another needless joke in the article (the xxx pron spam). Unless personal commentary/jokes/etc belong in articles now. --J12601 10:19, 23 October 2006 (CDT)


Newer things that need to be accounted for:

--Dorf (t|c) 14:46, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

At 150% Muscle the V for Vivala mask (30% = 45muscle) is better than the Slow talkin' elliot's dogtags at 30muscle. =D --Duff 20:28, 4 December 2007 (CST)

---Mallowed out Littlebum2002 15:32, 29 January 2008 (CST)

Another not accounted for thing appears to be Having a Ball! which is a +1-100% buff --Watermoon 02:31, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Impact of Percentage Boosts

Right now, all 3 stat maximization pages assume that the player has 100 of the stat in question, making percentage increases equal to discrete increases. However, I would presume that most people attempting to maximize their stats are most likely doing so for Fernswarthy's Basement, in which case their base stats are going to be significantly higher than 100 such that most percentages would far outweigh discrete bonuses. Now that we're at NS13, we should probably boost the assumed base stat level from 100 (just short of level 11 mainstat) to at least 150 (just past level 13 mainstat), if not higher, to give percentage increases higher priority. --Quietust (t|c) 16:03, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

  • Yeah, that bothers me too. Perhaps we should go beyond even 150 -- some "best percentage" equipment doesn't beat "best absolute" equipment even at that level. For a Muscle example: Can-Can skirt (10% of 150 = 15) vs. old school Mafia knickerbockers (25 absolute). Surely devoted basement divers would have greater than 250 main stat? Note that this is only a problem with equipment, because all effects can stack, even if they are once-a-day things like Mysterious Island Arena, by virtue of not adventuring. So perhaps another way of doing this would be to split equipment up into best percentage and best absolute, while keeping effects the same for both. Then the reader could pick whichever applies, for whatever reason they're maximising. Unfortunately, the page is rather cluttered already. Then again, at a glance, the counterexamples seem pretty rare, so maybe upping to 150 is the way to go. --Bagatelle 21:46, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
    • Actually Basement diver have the Muscle Modifiers page to refer to... This page is something that could be useful during an ascension, so 100 is closer to the mean stat one has during the whole run. Maybe a separate page "dressing for basement diving", that considers % increases always better than fixed increases, is in order? --Worthstream 06:07, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
      • Mayhaps we should have a page specifically devoted to basement diving and strategies involved therein?--Rikmach 16:31, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
      • Muscle Modifiers or slot-specific pages like Pants are more useful during an ascension, because you look for an extra slot you could fill, while in basement diving you look to maximize all slots to be able to pass the tests. Note that requirements aren't listed on this page, which is very important in ascensions and not in basement diving. I can come up with a script that adds a slider to the page, which then recalculates the percentages on the fly, but no idea how to convert that to something the wiki could produce, cause it will need some objects created by the page.--MoreCurious 06:56, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Why do we have to calculate it out, anyway? I've always been confused why it doesn't just say, "Total: x static points + y% boost." --The KoW 22:53, 31 October 2007 (CDT)

Well, I refer to the maximizing pages during the course of an ascension, so I think they should stay at 100. However, even better is the above idea- why not +X stats and +Y%? Wouldn't that be easiest? --DaemonStryker 13:30, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Wouldn't it make more sense to raise the assumed muscle on the basis that the 100 muscle value corresponds to the lower end requirement for an NS-11 run (104 for level 11)? Since 13 is the new 11, shouldn't the assumed base be raised as well? A page on "Maximizing My Whatever" is hardly that if having a few more points in muscle tips the balance between a +stat and +%stat.--CofLBelgarion 22:38, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Why not just have different base stats? Ascender-normal use 150 base stat, and villa and diety use, say, 600. Any percentage boost on 600 main stat is larger than a fixed boost. Littlebum2002 15:35, 29 January 2008 (CST)

If the assumed muscle is only 150, the muscle shirt is unequippable, and it's unlikely that you'll have the 200 moxie required to wear the lobsterpants as well. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume 200 stat on all of the maximizing pages, because I imagine most people use them for basementing. Right now the myst page is misleading because it has straight boosters in the hands slots instead of the 20% bonus from Hodgman's Whackin' Stick. So that's hardly maximizing.--Robojesus 03:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Effect Swamp?

Doesn't it seem a little bit weird to have this huge block of effects that just goes on for a long time like that? Should effects be put in some different way, as they are stackable, and there are so many of them?--Larryboy 14:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

- Can someone add the Velcro Broadsword to the list? -- AvangionQ / March 26th, 2009

Greatest American Pants

Why aren't these on the list, but Can-can skirt is? They both buff +10%, and the GAP also provides other bonuses. --Razorborne 22:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Added 'em. Thanks! --Wrldwzrd89 16:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Headhunter Necktie

Just wanted to point out that the Headhunter Necktie is missing form the accessory list for muscle modifiers. It grants +15 Mus while only costing -3 Mox. Thanks!

--Turtle King 19:47, 24 February 2012 (CET)

  • Fixed ;) --CheezyBob 20:50, 24 February 2012 (CET)