User talk:Eleron

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I see you modified the 20 pound leprechaun meat bonus. How did you confirm the bonus was 100.33%, instead of 100.25%?--QuantumNightmare 12:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

20 turns of Sinuses For Miles + money clip + 20 pound leprechaun vs brigands reduced to only one possible range of multipliers, 4.1533219761499147 to 4.1533742331288339. I'm guessing leprechaun gives (100 + 1/3)%, but it's really only accurate to one digit.

Most of the observed drops were impossible for a modifier of 4.1525, like the first one of 4074 meat.

The observed meat drops were:

4074, 4020, 4128, 4614, 4876, 3962, 3991, 4253, 4419, 3924,

4344, 4049, 4111, 4053, 4061, 4643, 4203, 3746, 4253, 4776,

--Eleron 08:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

  • curious.. you changed the leprechaun's drop rate based on 20 observed drops? Most people will use hundreds, if not thousands, of observed drops for this type of thing--MindlessGames 10:25, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

A thousand observed drops wouldn't be nearly enough to differentiate between 100.25 and 100.33 if it were only based on the total sum of meat dropped. However, the meat drop formula is known and because of how it works it is possible to determine things like 4.1525 not being the correct modifier based on just a single observed result.

981 * 4.1525 = 4073.6025

982 * 4.1525 = 4077.7550

This means that 4073 and 4077 are possible drops for a modifier of 4.1525, while 4074 is not. Either our understanding of meat modifiers is incorrect, or the modifier cannot be 4.1525. The modifier not being 4.1525 means that either sinuses for miles isn't +200%, money clip isn't +15%, or leprechaun isn't +100.25%.

An educated guess says that the meat modifier formula is correct and the leprechaun has the wrong value, since it it based on some underlying formula while the others were chosen manually. Personally I'd love the leprechaun modifier to be floored to exactly 100% at 20 lb, or at least that it were much much closer to 100%, but the results show that that's not how it works :) --Eleron 12:06, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Sea meat drop modifiers

Since we both seem to be working on this sort of thing, do you currently have any data for the salty dogs effect underwater? I know it provides at least +10% meat drops underwater, but that figure alone doesn't seem to explain all of the drops I'm seeing. I've had several meat drop values that should be impossible to obtain at the meat drop modifier I was running, with 10% from salty dogs included. 38 turns with salty dogs at -119% effect meat drop in the trench never yielded me meat. And 20 turns of salty dog spading at effectively -109% meat in the trench never gave me more than 3 meat (and always gave me at least 1, from things that had meat), which would put any variation cap at a whopping 11% or so. So it seems to be exactly 10%, but those couple of data points that I can't explain are bugging me. --Flargen 02:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

  • I haven't looked at salty dogs yet, but I'd be happy to look at your numbers. From your explanation I don't quite understand the problem with it being 10%. --Eleron 02:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, sorry about that. I can point out a problematic value pretty quickly.
Item Bonus
Wossname 11%
diving muff 20%
Expert Panhandling 10%
Polka of Plenty 50%
peeled eyeballs -20%
30 pound gnome (wallaby) 135.2404 138.5833 141.9047 145.2056
The Briny Deeps -25%
Total 181.2404% 184.5833% 187.9047% 191.2056%

And I got a meat drop of 752 meat (from a pumped-up bass) with all of that and Salty Dogs, and that value isn't possible at the Dogs-less drop rates or with an extra +10%. In fact, I got 2 other data points from pumped-up bass alone that don't work with an extra +10% from Salty Dogs: 654 and 657. Do I need to use fewer decimal digits of precision in the meat drop formula for my leprechaun (gnome, really) or something? --Flargen 02:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

  • I wouldn't use a familiar since salty dogs could be messing with that as well, especially not under wallaby which just makes it terribly flaky =) My initial results say +10% for salty dogs, +45% for salty + sharks, I'll have another look at that since it seems weird.--Eleron 02:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Well, my spading multi who's not under Wallaby is out of turns for today, and since the meat drop formula is fairly well known I was figuring I might as well pick up some items while I'm down there as well as boosting my meat bonus so gaps would occur more frequently. For the trench stuff I used a flaming gravy fairy instead of the gnome. Mostly to make it easy to get over -100% of effective meat drops in an attempt to check any variability. --Flargen 02:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Seeing +45% again instead of +50%. There's something going on.--Eleron 02:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Salty dogs and diving muff might also have an interaction.--Eleron 02:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Ah, yes, I suppose so. I shall have to see about that after rollover. This could get quite bothersome if all of the special modifiers mess around with each other. --Flargen 03:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Sharks + dogs + muff = still only +45%. They probably just cancel out penalties, while sharks has an innate +20%. --Eleron 03:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
          • Hmmm. That might work. If I limit salty dogs to 5% in the Briny Deeps (while wearing a muff), that pumped-up bass data becomes consistent. And the trench data has more than enough meat penalty room to allow the full 10% of the dogs with a muff equipped. --Flargen 03:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Mer-kin diver

If you think you're ever going to get around to trying to spade the drop ranges on sea monsters, could you be sure to check this bugger closely? After 87 fights I had seen base meat drops of 165-230, but suddenly the next 5 divers I encountered (over 7 turns; I was olfacting them at the time) all gave significantly larger base meat drops. Ranging from 278-318. I've mentioned this on the talk page for the diver. I did nothing to change my effects or buffs running during these turns, and I show no record of randomly receiving, say, Thingfinder or Chorale or anything else out of the blue. Not sure what's going on. Its incredibly unlikely that after 87 encounters I had failed to observe a range of nearly 90 meat. --Flargen 08:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Ah, dang, nevermind. A formula from a different set of meat drops I had run in earlier encounters had managed to propagate into the data for those fights. I should have noticed that more quickly when an observation of 274 meat yielded a base meat drop of 300-ish, and I wasn't running a negative meat modifier at the time. I guess I need to become more critical of my excel sheets and their formulas, since this silly sort of thing is happening to me a lot recently. --Flargen 08:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


Signing posts, wiki norms, etc

Oh hey, thanks for that. I'll try to get this down a little but faster. --Judgericand 20:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

  • No problem, welcome to the wiki :) There are some other minor things that tend to make the wiki experience more pleasant, e.g.:
    • Once a conversation is started on the appropriate talk page, keep the conversation there. This often means posting on your own talk page which might seem a bit odd, but it makes conversations easier to follow.
    • Don't edit other people's main user pages, post comments on the talk page instead. Some people get upset if you break this "rule".
    • Talk pages are also generally a bit different from the game content pages. You typically never delete anything from a talk page (some extremely long talk pages have old sections in separate archives, but that's not very common). You also shouldn't change what anyone else has written on talk pages, not even typos. Improving your own text is of course fine, but if it's something substantially new it should typically be written as a separate addition.
    • Add a new section if you're starting a new subject. I don't know if you noticed, but at a glance it could look like your first comment was related to the Mer-kin diver, which it certainly wasn't :)
    • There are probably other things as well, Help:Contents might be worth checking out. Taking it all in at once on the first day might be a bit much if you start editing all types of pages with different conventions, but I hope (and think) you understand that it's just meant to help the users in the long run, and not meant as criticism.

--Eleron 20:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


^_^;; Sorry about writing on your Main user page- but I can give you the Navel Ring of Naval Gazing. Let's Negotiate. --Judgericand 21:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

  • No problem :) The navel ring is available from the mall, and I could get it if I had enough spare meat. My problem is that I can't afford it, it's very valuable. --Eleron 21:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Data:Frigid hankyū

Any particular reason for replacing the "ū" characters with HTML entities? That sort of thing isn't supposed to be necessary here on this wiki. --Quietust (t|c) 22:19, 10 January 2012 (CET)

  • It's the correct name for the item, what the name is in the game. You reverted it to the wrong name which e.g. can't be used for mall searches and just doesn't correspond to KoL. --Eleron 22:45, 10 January 2012 (CET)
    • The only reason it's done with HTML entities within KoL is because KoL doesn't support Unicode properly - this wiki does support Unicode, therefore we don't use the "&#xxx;" syntax here (aside from things like leading apostrophes, but that's only to prevent them from being treated as markup). Besides, both are 100% identical in appearance ("ū" versus "ū"), so changing it had no benefit whatsoever. --Quietust (t|c) 02:14, 11 January 2012 (CET)
      • There is a use. I have to maintain exception lists for item names that are different as reported by the game and as used on the wiki. For example, my script to generate the items by autosell price pages. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 02:36, 11 January 2012 (CET)
        • Does that actually make use of the singular form displayed in the data page, though? If the exact in-game name is needed for this sort of thing, a better solution would be to simply add a new field in the data page for storing it. --Quietust (t|c) 18:51, 11 January 2012 (CET)
          • I don't directly touch the data pages. But I don't think you have explained why the wiki should prefer a UTF-8 character over an entity using a Unicode code point. I'm quite happy to follow a policy that has a well-reasoned rational behind it, but so far I have only seen fiat. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 19:55, 11 January 2012 (CET)
<-outdent
  • it was explained to me that a user shouldn't have to be html-savvy to be able to search the wiki. if they want to find jabañero pepper they shouldn't have to find out what the markup for n-tilde is. copy the text from the html page as presnted and not the source and search for that. it is a failing of the mall search in-game that you can't do that. an information source that is not readily searchable is useless. we should aim to make the wiki as complete in this regard as possible. --Evilkolbot 21:56, 11 January 2012 (CET)
    • If I search for "jaba&ntilde;ero pepper" the wiki tells me There is a page named "Jabañero pepper" on this wiki. If I'm writing a Greasemonkey script, I'm going to have the in-game name handy, not the UTF-8 rendered version. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 00:23, 12 January 2012 (CET)